Montag, 5. April 2010

Mana, Energie und Wut werden wieder wichtig mit Cataclysm

Guten Abend,

mittlerweile ist es doch so einfach zu kämpfen, heilen oder zu tanken, wenn man sich mal das Mana anschaut welches ziemlich hoch ist. So hat man so gut wie keine Mana Probleme und kann ununterbrochen die besten bzw. Mana-intensivsten Zauber dauerhaft spammen ohne Out of Mana zu gehen.

Mit Cataclysm soll sich das jedoch ändern und man muss sehr darauf achten was für Fähigkeiten man einsetzt. So wird man z.B. den Heldenhafter Stoß vom Krieger bewusst einsetzen und sich fragen ob der Wut Verlust lohnenswert ist.

Auf die Fragen der User antwortete Ghostcrawler:
Heroic Strike is supposed to be a rage dump and in an environment where you are converting every swing into a Heroic Strike, it's a safe assumption that rage isn't really a resource anymore. The decision is supposed to be "Do I have enough rage to Heroic Strike?" vs. "If I don't Heroic Strike now, am I wasting rage?" Warriors need to be balanced around doing some Heroic Striking -- not converting every white swing to a HS and not so rage starved that they can never hit it either.

I've been hinting that we're likely to change rage in Cataclysm, and I'll do so again in the hopes that some smart players will come out and defend that decision when we get a lot of "You can't change rage!" posts. :)

The problem with BC was that the rage solution we implemented felt like rage starvation and rather than adjust the model we kind of threw in the towel. I agree that having no rage and no way to get rage is frustrating. Part of our plan is to give warriors (and bears) more control over it.

It’s really not a damage issue so we don’t even need to get into whether warriors are doing too much damage in ICC or not. (Though I’d argue on some fights they are.) The real issue is that their damage doesn't stay in proportion with the other classes and is even more gear dependent. Until they have adequate rage coming in, they can’t use enough abilities. Once they have enough rage coming in, they can mash their buttons continuously. We don't want rage to be something you graduate from. It is the entire core of the warrior class, along with stances.

All other dps classes have to manage their resources. The closest exceptions are Retribution and Enhancement, because their resource is mana, and they are designed to have small pools and regenerate it quickly. Their damage is still held in check by other mechanics though, principally cooldowns. Energy and rune users don’t ever run out of resources for very long, but then again neither do rage-users. Mana-users won’t run out of mana for short periods of time, but generally will over longer fights (Elemental may be an exception). They have systems to get their mana back when that happens though, and as I said, we think warriors need more of those too. Look at how the DK "shout" actually generates resources....

These are the kinds of posts we’re going to be seeing a lot of, sadly. You should look around at what some of your fellow warriors who understand the problems with the mechanic are saying though. Players who equate any potential game change with a nerf aren't going to be able to contribute much to the discussion I'm afraid. (And before you try it, saying that you've come to expect it after years of mistreatment at the hands of the malicious devs doesn't change that.)

Next swing attacks are all going to die. The experience of using them is underwhelming, their mechanics are confusing, and they might even cause real world pain. :(

Yes, as several players have pointed out, PvE Arms does have more rage management than Fury or Protection, and perhaps Arms would be more competitive in PvE content if Fury had to manage rage as well.

I am already regretting having made that quote up above. I was acknowledging that Arms doesn't necessarily have infinite rage. The point I wanted to address was the mechanic for rage, not to discuss Arms to Fury dps comparisons. (That's a fine topic if you want to discuss it, but that wasn't my specific purpose posting here.)

Resources for all classes are supposed to matter. If they weren't supposed to matter then we could certainly simplify the game by removing them all. For some classes or specs, the actual resource is GCDs not a bar that fills up.

Rage, energy, runes and soon focus are essentially infinite. You only risk running out for short periods of time, but they'll be back eventually.

For mana-using dps specs, the gameplay is similar but the time slice is broader. A mage isn't going to run out of mana in the first few seconds of a fight. She might run out later, particularly in a longer fight, but she also has ways to get that mana back, and then using those at the right time becomes some of the skill of playing that class.

Healers all use mana, and they are supposed to run out of mana if they make bad decisions. That isn't currently happening, but it will in Cataclysm. Healers feel singled-out by that design, but we believe that when healers have infinite mana that we lose controls in designing an encounter. We have to rely on killing characters faster than healers can respond, punishing players dramatically for doing or failing to do some key event in the fight, or relying on dps checks with berserk timers and the like. Healer mana is a tool we had in BC and lost in LK. When the raid takes too much avoidable damage, then the healers eventually gas out (after using their own tools for mana restoration, like Divine Plea and Innervate) and the group then dies. Put another way, the game is just too easy when healers can just rely on their most powerful spell all of the time (many of us also think the healer gameplay is a little boring when you arne't using all your spells).

I'm not trying to derail the topic from rage, but I did want to explain why we think it's okay for some characters to have infinite resources and some to risk running out. But the resource itself still needs to matter even if it is effectively infinite.

They're not. Berserk timers, for example, penalize bad decision-making among the dps specs. We just don't want every single fight to be balanced around a tight dps check. The encounters end up with a certain amount of sameness.

Likewise, tanks getting blow up when they fail to use cooldowns at the right time or position or trade-off the boss the right way are the skill checks for tanks. Preventing dying from standing in void zones is a skill check for everyone, depending on the encounter.

Healers running OOM can mean they used the wrong spell, or made poor gearing or talent decisions, or that the tank (or sometimes dps) made poor gearing or talent decisions.

We want to shoot for a BC style model, except the choice will come from spell A vs. spell B instead of rank 3 of spell A vs. rank 9 of spell A. Downranking had some serious gameplay problems, most notably being an unintutive mechanic for new players and letting players in general cheese coefficients of lower ranked spells. The actual decision that downranking offered of efficient vs. big vs. fast is an interesting one though, and one we think is missing for too much of LK.

To get there, many healers will need a new spell B or A, except potentially druids, who just need the numbers tweaked on some existing spells so that they have more defined niches.

As someone who has spent a lot of time healing, I *think* it's going to be a pretty fun time for healers, though I'm sure it will take some tweaking before it feels exactly right.

Actually, the evidence suggests otherwise. Rogues for example have been in a pretty good spot for most of the expansion in PvE and PvP but are one of the least popular classes. If anything I suspect there aren't that many true FotM rerollers probably because they imagine after they've put in all that effort to reroll that we will have adjusted the status quo in the meantime. If players really swapped classes with reckless abandon, I further suspect you'd see a lot fewer "buff me plz" posts. I also suspect it's more likely that players play the classes they like and then get frustrated when they think we aren't holding up our end of the bargain (which is a pretty reasonable response when you think about it). If the motivation was just to go where the damage is, there would probably be fewer passionate pleas to get everything so close.

I don't know if shameful is the word I'd use. That's a pretty heavy one. DPS across the board is pretty close, certainly relative to where it has been in the past. We can still probably do even better, but let's keep things in perspective. Every class has multiple viable specs in PvE and in most cases if they have a spec that is lagging behind it's because it's dominant in PvP so we don't have a lot of room to just tweak up the damage. That's small consolation if you just love the Arms playstyle, but it's better than Arms being a completely dead tree (as Subtlety was close to being). In the meantime, if dps really matters to you, the Fury tree doesn't require massive regearing or relearning. It's not as bad I'd argue as a Shadow priest who has no option but to heal if he's not competitive, or a Balance druid who has to start over with gearing up in order to go kitty.

I'd say it's close, but we can do better. Quelle

Es wird wohl mit Cataclysm keine "Next Swing Attacks" Attacken mehr geben, also Attacken die mit dem nächsten Schwung der Waffe ausgelöst werden.

Zudem werden starke Zauber mit Cataclysm eine höhere Ablinkzeit besitzen und jeder muss für sich selbst entscheiden wann er welchen Zauber einsetzt und nicht einfach jede (gerade die starken ) Attacken nacheinander sinnlos einsetzt.




  1. in wow classic war es so.. back to the rules oder wie?.. find ich gut!

  2. Shee ich auch so ! :)

    Endlich wieder bisschen mehr Nachdenken wenn man einen Zauber wirkt ;)